Podcast | In The Driver’s Seat: Taking Control Of Your Career with Phil Popham

Written by Dave Seddon on 09 May, 2023

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Transcript

You're listening to the changemaker podcast, a series of conversations with individuals on their career journey, how they've got where they are and the lessons they've learned along the way.

Dave: Today I’m joined by Phil Popham, who has had a 34-year career thus far, 16 years of which have been at a senior board level in organisations such as Lotus, Jaguar Land Rover and Sunseeker, to name but a few. Having come out of the corporate world, he now runs his own consultancy practice, is a non-executive director of a number of boards, and was recently awarded an Honorary Doctorate of Science at Aston University, where he originally received his degree back in 1988. 

A very warm welcome to Phil, and many thanks for joining me today. 

So the first question I wanted to ask you is where did that journey start? And was it ever planned?

Phil: It wasn't really planned, although I went to university and I think that's where the rest of my career was somewhat modelled. 

My degree at Aston University had a big impact in terms of my thinking and the decisions that I made. I was doing a Business Studies degree, focusing on marketing, market research and finance, and a lot of the case studies in the final year were on automotive - because of the location of the university - and as a result of that, I only applied for automotive positions when I left. That led me to go into Land Rover on their graduate training scheme back in 1988, and that really did then determine what I was doing for the rest of my life.

Dave: And back then, did you know what your motivators were?

Phil: Yeah I had one big motivator: I really had a desire to go and live and work abroad, which I was fortunate enough to do with Land Rover, both in South Africa and then the United States.

Dave: And how would you have described your time once you were in work then? 

Phil: They had a very good training scheme back then, in terms of going through different departments. So I did everything from working on the line and assembling the classic Range Rover, to working within sales positions and marketing positions. And I was very, very fortunate the following year, in 1989, as the original Discovery was launched. I was in marketing at the time and spent six weeks on their launch, working 16-18 hours a day, seven days a week for six weeks. It was a massive learning experience, but it also was a great opportunity to make long-standing relationships within the company. 

Everyone that was in operations got to meet the press and dealers from all over the world during that period. And some of those relationships held me in such good stead as I grew through the company and became promoted through the company. People referred back to those six weeks back in 1989 years later and said: “That was when, really, we got to know who you were and what you were”. And it was very, very fortunate timing. 

Dave: So those six weeks were massively pivotal in terms of what you did in later life and some of the relationships you developed?

Phil: Yeah, later on in my career I had full responsibility for different launches, both in the UK and overseas. So I took some of the learnings from those six weeks and they became very useful. But I think, more importantly, was the relationships and the contacts within quite a large company that was a growing company during that time as well. And some of those people that were there participating in the launch with me stayed with the company, got promoted with the company and became part of the senior leadership team. 

And I do really believe that strong working relationships and culture, values and behaviours within a company are pretty critical to success.

Dave: I'll come on to culture a little bit later on, but what would you have considered to be your earliest big break then?

Phil: I did one or two roles early on where I took risks to an extent. There were two things I did: one, I took control of my own career. I was quite transparent in terms of what I wanted to do and I got airtime with senior people within the organisation; I certainly let it be known that I wanted to go and work abroad as soon as possible, but I was totally flexible in that. And that was one of the risks I took. But before that, I succumbed to a financial services company as well, which was a bit of a risk, but it just broadened my experience, which is really important, I think, early on in your career. And that did lead me to my first break. 

When I came back into the company, I was part of a reorganisation which saw the field teams - a salesperson, a service person and the parts person - brought together into a single position called the ‘Regional Business Manager’. And I was one of the original team. And I got noticed because I was doing more in the finance area of the business and was then offered that opportunity. And I think that's the point at which my career within Land Rover and Jaguar Land Rover really kicked off.

Dave: I'm just staggered by some of the great brands that you've worked for. So what were the key components of those roles that attracted you to join those companies? 

Phil: I think the fact that they're they've all been premium British consumer brands. So Sunseeker, Land Rover, Lotus, they've all had a long history, renowned first for certain things, well known around the world, and I'd say probably awareness was greater than familiarity. People had heard of them but were not necessarily familiar with what the products were at that time. And I had the opportunity to be part of a growth period for all of those companies. 

I spent a long time at Land Rover, which was part of Rover Group, and then became part of Jaguar Land Rover through ownership changes. When I joined, it was a company that was selling 50,000, and when I left in 2014, it was selling half a million units. So I was part of that growth. 

What attracted me then to move on and go to Sunseeker after was I was choosy about where I was going, but I had decided at that point that I wanted a chance to run a company. I’d been on the board of JLR for about nine years, I had global commercial responsibilities, but I wanted a real crack at winning a business. And that in my mind, that made it clear that I would have to part ways with JLR, which was very, very amicable because I was very honest in terms of why. 

I was very choosy because I wasn't particularly looking for a job at any point in time. The right opportunity had to come along and that did with Sunseeker. I was familiar with the company and I knew their founder, Robert Braithwaite. It was a company at that point in time that had just been taken over by new shareholders who wanted to invest in a turnaround and growth. And it was a brilliant opportunity to have the first opportunity to run a business and to have total responsibility for all disciplines, and be part of a turnaround and growth plan which lasted for the next three years. 

I wasn't particularly looking to leave that company, but another opportunity emerged with another famous British brand, Lotus. Similarly, it had just been taken over by Geely, a fast-growing automotive business that was looking to invest in a turnaround and growth plan for Lotus. And it was probably repeating what I've done at Sunseeker to an extent, and that pull back to the automotive industry was a really, really strong one. And so I moved back into the auto industry.

Dave: But going back to Sunseeker, where did that desire come from to actually want to lead a business yourself?

Phil: I think my career has taken me into roles that have been quite transformational in nature. And that's a buzzword at the moment. I was brought into most roles to change or grow with that, whether that was growth or a startup. I've done a role for two, three, maximum five years, and then moved on to another challenge. And that in itself, running a business, although I've had involvement in all aspects of business, I hadn't ever had total responsibility for a full business. So that was a challenge for me personally, it was a brand that I could really relate to in need of a turnaround and growth strategy. And it's just a great personal challenge, with a business, British brand and products I can really relate to.

Dave: So there was the turnaround piece, there was the leadership piece, but there's also a particular mention about the British piece too. How important is that for you?

Phil: It was quite important in terms of marketing and positioning of the brand. But I guess personally, it was more about it being a global brand, with its heritage and base in Britain. Although I've worked abroad twice in my life, to actually run a company that was British based was quite an important factor for me. All the roles I’ve had, I think, have required a developmental repositioning of a brand, but on the basis of a very, very strong heritage and awareness. So less important, the British elements of that, although there are many positives associated with premium brands having British craftsmanship, are attributes that are associated with premium British brands. 

Dave: And you said you weren’t actively looking for a particular role at that stage, so were you approached for these roles? Or did you actively go out and search for these roles yourself?

Phil: So I had made a decision that I would have to leave Jaguar Land Rover in order to run a company. And that was my personal goal, so I had to be proactive in that. But it was coincidental that at the time I got approached by the recruitment company that was working on behalf of Wanda, the Chinese owners of Sunseeker, and the timing was just perfect in that respect. The time was right, the brand was right, the challenge was right. 

I think with the Lotus situation, because there were many, many similarities in terms of the challenge facing Lotus to the one that faced Sunseeker three or four years before; both famous in terms of their heritage, both well known, both with global aspirations, both owned by Chinese shareholders. And again, I was approached by Geely, the owners of Lotus, to see if I was interested in that role. That was largely because of the experience I'd just gone through the previous three or four years.

Dave: And have there always been single roles come up at the same time or have you had to choose between a number of roles? 

Phil: No, the only time I've had the pleasure of that was when I left university. And I think because I hadn't been really active in moving and had been quite choosy about what I would go on to, I've never been eager to leave a company. I've gone on to do things because they've been challenging, with the right companies and the right brand at the right point in time. So I haven't gone out and applied for multiple roles since leaving university.

Dave: So it's typically been people who have approached you then? 

Phil: Yeah, so I think because I've been in outward-facing roles on the commercial side, my profile has been quite high at board level. Within JLR, I was the principal spokesperson for the company for a number of years on a global stage, so you do get noticed. So that's a benefit.

Dave: And when you were approached for the Sunseeker role, how did you prepare for the interview? 

Phil: The critical thing for me was the fact that both companies, despite the one being a Marine and one being an automotive, shared very similar principles. I was concerned at the time whether my skills would be totally transferable across the industry, and I found out that they were. And I think the automotive sector, certainly at the time, was ahead of marine in terms of some of its disciplines, processes and product creation processes. And all of my experience and skills that I've built up over the years were totally transferable. So talking more about how you design, engineer, manufacture and then sell luxury products, as opposed to automotive cars, was the basis of that discussion.

Dave: Okay, and what has inspired you in your career? Or who in your life has inspired you?

Phil: I think a lot of people that I've worked with and worked for have given me inspiration. I do find that I observe people a lot when I'm in groups, just to see what their traits are, how they position themselves, what drives them, what works, what doesn't. I've often said that the strength of a business is based on its people, and I truly believe that.

So there are, as I say, a number of people that I've learned from both positively and negatively during my career, and I still find myself thinking about what a certain person would do in a particular situation. Some people are very good technically, some have huge drive and energy, others are very people oriented in terms of trying to create a good atmosphere and a good culture within a business. So I think people constantly have to learn from each other.

Dave: So you mentioned life's a journey of learning both good and bad. So what has your experience working with some of your less positive leaders taught you? 

Phil: I think mainly around the importance of building a progressive culture within an organisation. Culture is the way you feel, the way you act, and a progressive culture is a culture where everyone understands the direction of business right through the organisation and the part that they play in it. People are motivated, they're passionate about success, and the culture is really reflected in the whole vision and positioning of the company itself. 

And I've met people who are very, very good at actually developing those cultures and taking people with them. And that's what I’ve tried to do throughout my career. That's my focus as a leader.

Dave: And on that leadership style, is that something you think you learn through experience? Or is it something you think you can be taught at school? Where do you think that leadership bug comes from?

Phil: I think it is a learning exercise, but you've got to have natural traits to be able to listen and involve people. Teams need to be created with a whole cross-section of people in terms of their skills and personality traits, and there are some that are just very, very driven, and very technical. But from a leadership point of view, I think the key skill is how you bring all of those different elements in a team together and actually pull them together in the same direction and benefit from all of those skills. You need to have a clear direction everyone buys into and ensure everyone understands the part they've got to play and they're motivated to succeed.

Dave: Yeah, and it may or may not have been of relevance, but I speak to many leaders, and it can be a bit of a lonely existence. I remember speaking to someone before and asking where he was getting inspiration from and he said:”Well, it's a bit problematic, because those people above me feel as if I should already have those skills. And it's difficult to share that.” 

How did you find your experience? Did you find it a lonely existence being at the top?

Phil: It can be very lonely at times. When you think that the buck stops with yourself, the decisions that are made, you are the most senior operating person in that organisation. And I did reach out to people outside of the business. I've got a couple of mentors within business that I've kept in contact with who have been very, very good to me in terms of showing an interest in my career and being good sounding boards, whether it be non-execs on my board or senior people within the automotive industry, over a number of years, I bounced off ideas and still talk to them now.

Dave: Okay, so hugely important then. 

And when you reflect back on your career, I suspect you've had a huge number of challenges given what you’ve said, and there have been some difficult decisions that you've had to make. What do you feel on reflection stands out as perhaps the biggest challenge to date?

Phil: Most of the challenges, I think, come in terms of developing a plan which you think will work, and engaging with all the stakeholders. So I talked about having a plan that everyone or direction that everyone buys into and pulls together as a motivator to succeed. 

The complexity is the number of stakeholders. So in an automotive context, you will have shareholders, the board itself with execs and non-execs, you'll have your employees which are majorly important, you'll have other investors such as banks, you'll have to deal with the public side of the business, so the press that will always have ideas or opinions about how well the business or you are doing without necessarily having all the facts. And it's a bit of a balancing exercise. A balance between a focus on good governance, good structure, good decision-making inside the business to move towards that direction, but also keeping everyone else happy or informed. So communications are a key part of that with all stakeholders. That is the most complex thing I found.

And that is probably the area that I've put most work into, in making sure that everyone is informed, everyone does understand where you're going, and everyone buys into that, whether it's a journalist on one side through to the employees and shareholders at the same time.

Dave: Okay, and actually one of the things you mentioned earlier is that one of the signs of a great leader is the team that they have around them.

What have you looked for in people when you've picked your own team?

Phil: Certainly at the operating board level. So at the exec team level, they always look for people that can be responsible for their own function, but also see their role as part of the operating board of the business. So they can step out of their own function and look at what's required for the business as a whole, and actually make some brave decisions and have an opinion on things that they are not responsible for on a day-to-day basis.

And I think in all the organisations that I've worked with, we've had real strength over time in that executive team by attracting those sorts of people. 

I've had to hire a number of people in those turnaround situations or growth situations, so that’s helped because I can identify people that have got those personality traits and bring them in from the outside. But equally, there needs to be a balance of new people with new ideas, new energy, with people that have spent a lot of time in the business that are very, very passionate about a brand and understand some of the history of what may have happened in the past. Get that killer combination of people that are ‘longtimers’ that have got that passion about the history of that business, the brand, the products, with new people coming in from the outside with ideas, and perhaps more understanding and learning on disciplines and governance. And if you can get those two types of people working together in a senior leadership team, you've got a very, very effective governance team.

Dave: And did you use any particular tools? Or was it more around a gut feeling about an individual? Or a combination?

Phil: If I was hiring someone at a senior level, there would be a long process but multifaceted process. And I would make sure that it wasn't just me, if that person was going to report it to me, it was not just going to be myself or the HR director that made that decision or inputted on the decision, but they get exposure to the people they will be working with. 

And then at the end of the day, you've got to make a decision one way or the other. But if you've got as many inputs in terms of what people think about the person, their personality, their history, their experience, their potential, then the more input you've got, the more likely you are going to make a good decision on that hire.

Dave: And do you think you often recruit like-minded people? Or do you go for very different people as well?

Phil: Your personality, your approach will actually cascade through the business. And that's why it's really important that a leader is visible. And, yes, I think I will set out some clear criteria in terms of what I think the role needs, but I think you do naturally attract people that have similar outlooks to yourself. And it's quite important that part of that process is that if you hire someone, you've got to be able to work with them. And they've got to be able to work with you. There's got to be that mutual respect and understanding.

Dave: And when you've seen people who are not quite right, how long has it taken you to decide that that person is wrong when they walk into that room?

Phil: It doesn't happen often. But it has happened. And I think the important thing there is to be brave, to be open and honest. If it's not working, then sit down and have a conversation with that person. 

Now, I always believe that everyone needs to go through a process and be able to develop and change. But they won't do that unless you're very upfront with them very early in terms of what you think is going wrong. Hopefully, they can turn that around. But sometimes you can't. You need to be really fair with them in terms of that approach and give them the appropriate exit if that's the way it goes. I think it is important to not let it roll on for too long because it harms a person's career and can harm the business. And quite often that happens because people aren't brave enough to actually focus on that early enough.

Dave: I was thinking more in relation when you've interviewed someone and they walk in the room rather than necessarily already existing in the business. Often, I’ve worked with people who’ve said, “Well, I'd made my mind up in the first 90 seconds, and the rest of the interview is just confirming what I already thought.”

Phil: Yeah, initial impressions do play a part and that's why it's important to have more than one person involved in that decision. So those initial impressions may be different, someone else may see something that you don't, and I think you do have to resist those initial impressions because they can be wrong.

And I always spend quite a lot of time when I'm interviewing people talking about what motivates them in their private life, what they enjoy doing outside of work, really getting them talking about their family, their friends, their outside pursuits, trying to get under the skin of who this person really is, rather than the professional facade that they may put up because they are really motivated in getting the job.

Dave: Yeah, and actually, that's a massively important point and comes to one of the other things I wanted to touch upon in terms of competence versus cultural fit. What do you tend to lean towards?

Phil: Well, firstly, you've got to have the technical capability to do the job. It doesn't benefit anyone if someone can't actually come in and do the activities that they're employed to do. Then just as important - and it's an ‘and’ rather than an ‘or’ - they've got to have the cultural fit. They've got to be able to lead, they've got to be able to work with their peers, they've got to be able to pull people together. But you can't get past first base if you can't technically do the job that you're being employed to do.

Dave: And just continuing for a short while on the culture aspects. I know many of the brands that you've worked with have definitely got a global feel to them. How important is understanding some of those cultural differences in the way that you've done business?

Phil: It's critically important. And it's a part of my job that I really enjoyed, getting to understand different cultures and how that impacts business. You can't be successful in China or the Middle East until you spend time building a relationship with people. 

So personal relationships and trust are really important in the Middle East, for example, you have to earn respect. In China, you have to invest time in socialising with people and understanding them. You can't think that everyone operates in a British or European way, because they don't. There are cultural nuances everywhere. And if you can invest a little bit of time in the country as well as listening to what happens outside of work, being sensitive to cultural norms, the way that they approach things, the hierarchical nature that some organisations have, or some cultures have. You have to respect the fact that they do things differently in those countries or different organisations, and unless you understand it and respect it, you're not going to develop the key business relationships to be successful.

Dave: And was that something you were taught as part of these roles? Or was it something you did a bit of research on? How did you approach those meetings?

Phil: Well, firstly, I think having lived in South Africa and then the US for four years, and being there that time you learn that things are very, very different, whether it be language, whether it be culture, whether it be the way that people act. So because of that quite early in my life, it made me sensitive to those differences.

Doing your homework on people and making sure that you understand the decision makers and what's on their mind, what the purpose of the meeting is. A good example is when I started going to China, back in 2006, a lot of the people we were meeting were dictated by how fluent they work in English, rather than necessarily the roles that they've got. So we weren't necessarily talking to the decision maker. And you had to work a little bit harder to understand who that was. 

As time went on, you then made sure you had good translators to talk to the right people, rather than just talking to people that were fluent in your own language. That illustrated to me how poor we are as Brits, generally, in terms of speaking other languages. So doing your homework on the organisation, on the people and the decision makers as well as having a sensitivity and understanding of business culture.

Dave: And I was talking to somebody recently, actually, in the automotive industry about the recent pandemic, and one of the things he brought up was the fact that they were not travelling to the US and it affected some of their relationships, because they were not meeting face-to-face to build that rapport. And he said business generally suffered as a result of that. It's just not the same over Teams calls, you just miss some of those personal interactions.

And I guess in some countries, unless you meet them personally, they will probably see it as a bit of an insult?

Phil: Yeah, it's a real challenge. I think it's a challenge for any organisation, not just those that are dealing with different cultures or people overseas. I think technology has come on tremendously quickly and allows us to use Teams and all the other online forums to make remote businesses effective, but you do miss the side chats, you do miss the corridor discussions. 

If I think back to some of the strategy days that I had, or the strategy decisions that we made, they were quite often done late at night, in front of a whiteboard, in my office with pizzas in the evening. And you don't get that through online approaches. And I think it's really important as life has got back to normal, that companies get that right balance between utilising the technology that's advanced so much to make them efficient but to make sure they don't miss out on some of the huge benefits of face-to-face interaction.

Dave: Yeah, and given some of the very senior positions that you've held in your career and steering businesses through some pretty serious transitions, how have you managed that balance? And during those challenging periods, have you managed your mental wellbeing?

Phil: I'm a bit of a planner. So for example, at the start of the year when I was working full time in operational roles, I would plan my holidays, first and foremost, because a lot of my time was spent split between locations away from the family. So having good quality time planned and protected with my family and ensuring nothing was going to get in the way of those dates that I had set aside early in the year by giving everyone enough notice, that's just really, really important. 

And although at senior level you need to be open to communications 24/7, you do need to set aside times where you're not accessible - unless it's a complete emergency - because there are other things in your life that you need to do to get that work-life balance. So the work-life balance is all about planning for me.

Dave: And did you stick to that philosophy? Or was it one of those ‘these are the rules around it’ situations? And subsequent to that question, was it something you instilled in your own team culture?

Phil: Certainly with my team, it was the respect that if you are away, you are away. And it is a two-way expectation, really. So I will only contact you if there's a real emergency and I need your input or your support on something, and they would know that if a phone call came in from me, it was problematic, or there's something I really needed. And I always say, get back to me within 24 hours, we don't need it within five minutes. 

I wasn't quite as good as that myself. I would protect the time I was going away with my family, but I would always have my phone on. The only time my phone was ever off was when I was on an aeroplane. But then, people did respect the fact that you were on holiday. And I think over time with the team, we got into that situation where they would only contact me if they really needed me. But the key to that is having confidence, confidence and delegating, making sure you have a team in place that can do the job when you're not around. But I think it's also important as a leader to still be accessible if you’re needed.

Dave: Okay, great. And what single piece of advice would you give to someone starting out in their career?

Phil: When I had my graduation ceremony for my honorary degree, they invited me to receive the degree at the same time as the undergraduates doing the course I graduated from back in 1988. 

They asked me to make a speech, and it was quite interesting, the parallels between the world of work they're going into now compared to 1988, with technology, etc. But I think the key element now is that progress is not dictated by time done anymore. It's not as though you've been in a job for 10-20 years, so therefore, you're gonna get promoted. It's all about hard work. It's all about capability. It's all about taking the initiative. 

So I think new graduates have got far more opportunities than in the days when I graduated. However, success won't just come to you, you've got to go after it yourself, you've got to plan your career and you're going to have to work pretty hard. And you're going to have to make sure that people around you know what you want, as well. 

So having an understanding of what your goals are, where you want to be, and going out and grasping it, because I don't think there's ever been a better opportunity for graduates than there is now.

Dave: And this is going to be a tricky question, but if you could be remembered for one thing in your career, what would it be?

Phil: I'm the guy that people like to work with. So I've got a career that I'm proud of in terms of what I've been able to achieve in the roles that I've done. But the most enjoyable part of that has been the people that I've worked with. And if they remember me in as positive a light as I remember them, then job done.

Dave: And you are performing a very different role now, and running your own consultancy practice and doing a lot of volunteering. Tell us a little bit about that next chapter in your life.

Phil: Well, I'm fortunate now that I can be choosy in what I do. I certainly have not retired, and I want to take the experiences I've had for a number of years at senior level and hopefully help other organisations that need those skills. And equally doing it in industries or with companies, products and brands that interest me.

Dave: And how are you finding working in the consultancy space rather than the corporate space? 

Phil: Yes, and it is quite a challenge when you're in consulting because you're on someone else's agenda rather than your own. So when you're running a business, you really do set the agenda in terms of content and timing. And when you're in an advisory role, you're definitely on someone else's calendar and agenda in terms of timing. 

So that's why I found the early days a little bit frustrating in terms of speed and making sure that the timings work, but I'm enjoying it. I think I've got a lot to offer in terms of experience, and I'd like to work as I am now with multiple companies over the next few years.

Dave: Are you missing that interaction with a team that you had before? Or are you relishing that opportunity to actually just be responsible for yourself now?

Phil: It's nice to not have 24/7 responsibilities. One thing I have found is I get my weekends back. And I am fortunate I've got a split of advisory and non-exec. So I do sit on boards, I do have that interaction on an ongoing basis with different people, but it's definitely a different style of work and a different style of learning.

Dave: I know from previous discussions, you've got a couple of grown-up children who have just started their own careers. What do you think they've picked up from you along the way? Have they launched themselves into their careers?

Phil: They're both now living away from home. One is based in London, and one is actually in Melbourne. So a lot further away than I would ideally like, but they're very motivated. They know what they want to do. They're ambitious. I have no doubt they're going to be successful in whatever field they end up following.

Dave: Phil, thank you ever so much. Once again, it's been an absolute privilege and delight to talk to you and learn about your career journey. 

Phil: Really enjoyed it! Thank you.